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  1. Outcast
    OceanRaven / Aug 25 2020 1.11

    "What does Physchocphy feel like?" He asked.

    "Nothing." She replied. "Everything....Like I've been thurst a billion miles into the great depths of freezing ocean-and all are afraid of me, hating me because of what I can see. Who I am. Like I have been subsumed in a tsunami's inky blackness as dead as night itself-as dark as life. The unknown crippling around me, destorying my veiw of society and turning it inside out-black and white. With the tips of golden on the white knights riding the foamy waves-I just see black and white. I have an illness-And people scorn me-and mock me, and compare me to the most criminal! Because I'm objective, ambitous-think for myself. They see me as an ailean. It makes me one. Of course-if I said I felt fear and pain, you wouldn't believe me-call me the liar-the phsyco. I don't-" She added. "But ever so."

    This dialouge brings me to an interesting moral debate-Who is the worst criminal?

    The murderer who physically cannot feel-who knows nothing of why it is, coherently 'wrong' to kill?

    Or thee who murders with love and emotion and compassion and rage-who does it not for moral ambiguiety, curiousty, and social outcast-but because he needs it.

    Who is more selfish. The 'ordinary' person, or the one who cannot feel.

    If you, in my opion, understand love, and passion and fury and wrath, and agony, and depression and glee and anxiety-It makes you crime evermore twisted and haunous-To point I would say Love is the criminal-The point I would say 'Physopath' the innocent.

    Not to say I don't love love. I just wish socioety understood that calling someone a Physco, or Socio-path, is discrimintory.

    But, hey,-Red to me could be blue to you. What is reality? Maybe you, or me, or any, thinks they are 'normal'.

    (Sorry for spelling, I have dyselxia)

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    mabinogion / Aug 26 2020 0.01

    hey there, i think this is a really interesting discussion. i do think the line is a little blurred, and it really depends on individual situation. for example, someone killing their partner because they cheated is not at all okay, but someone killing a person because they killed or raped their child would be more okay. i also think that while clinical psychopaths may have trouble with empathy etc, it is very much a well known and ingrained message in our society that murder is not okay, so these people would know that, and killing despite knowing that wouldnt really be okay. individual situations even in those scenarios though could differ and be more or less innocent. thats my opinion anyway x

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    mabinogion / Aug 26 2020 0.01

    hey there, i think this is a really interesting discussion. i do think the line is a little blurred, and it really depends on individual situation. for example, someone killing their partner because they cheated is not at all okay, but someone killing a person because they killed or raped their child would be more okay. i also think that while clinical psychopaths may have trouble with empathy etc, it is very much a well known and ingrained message in our society that murder is not okay, so these people would know that, and killing despite knowing that wouldnt really be okay. individual situations even in those scenarios though could differ and be more or less innocent. thats my opinion anyway x

    OceanRaven / Aug 28 2020 0.36

    Totally Agree! Whilst I would DEFINATLY DEFINATLYwant a murderer away from me-I do have sympothy for those who kill. They (most likely) come from abusive, negligent homes, trauma, war, and turmoils harder than we can imagine.

    I am not saying sociopathy is 'bad', but, there are ways to 'stop' it-if treated before the age of around 15. And, whilst socipaths can 'apparantly' feel 'limited' emotions, there have been many studies.

    Whilst I do not believe in inherent good or evil-and, that a perfect balance between both would be the closest to 'pure good' we can get, I still disagree passionatly with murder. Be it a dog or a human (Altough as humans the latter distresses us more). Thanks for so many great insights,

    -OceanRaven

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    OceanRaven / Aug 28 2020 0.36

    Totally Agree! Whilst I would DEFINATLY DEFINATLYwant a murderer away from me-I do have sympothy for those who kill. They (most likely) come from abusive, negligent homes, trauma, war, and turmoils harder than we can imagine.

    I am not saying sociopathy is 'bad', but, there are ways to 'stop' it-if treated before the age of around 15. And, whilst socipaths can 'apparantly' feel 'limited' emotions, there have been many studies.

    Whilst I do not believe in inherent good or evil-and, that a perfect balance between both would be the closest to 'pure good' we can get, I still disagree passionatly with murder. Be it a dog or a human (Altough as humans the latter distresses us more). Thanks for so many great insights,

    -OceanRaven

    mabinogion / Aug 28 2020 13.45

    i wouldnt agree that a lot of people who kill have had negative past experiences, a lot of them also kill due to prejudice, society telling them its ok or that they can get away with it/have fame from it (soldiers, police, school shooters respectively) or because they just arent nice people, which are all their fault, not their environments. we shouldnt be feeling sympathetic towards all murderers, it almost excuses murder. it is ok to try to understand reasoning in certain situations, but murder is never the good option. if it is in self defense, i wouldnt count it as murder, so it wouldnt be in the same category, and obviously you could feel sympathy for them.

  5. Outcast
    OceanRaven / Aug 29 2020 22.46

    A grown man in his 30's will not awake with a thirst for blood-Like everything, murder has a cause. I cannot send links (It violates message board laws) however, merely research child-abuse and serial-killer stastics and you will see stastics ranging as high as 90% admitting to have had sexual, phychological, and/or physical abuse. Here is a fictional, all be it very real, example.

    'Dan' has a widowed mother with proufound OCD and schritzophrenia. Haunted by dellusions she beats Dan until he is so bruised his pale causcasion skin is purely black-and he collapses. He is forced to feel NOTHING, If he even allows himself to have a glimmer of forgivingness his mother will surely kill him. He grows so petrified next time she comes to collect his meal he stabs her. Suddenly all the fear and terror washes away and he feels relief-the closest thing to happiness he can. Call him what you will, physco, wrong, criminal-He is not innocent nor guilty. Imagine feeling nothing but terror and killing is all that makes existence bareable. Denying yourself emotion in fear of death. He may have had other options, but he would have perished. He is just as much-perhaps more of a victem than his prey. I know this is controversal, but I feel great pity for a child who has been beatan, scorned to the point of murder, and raped. Oh wait, it's not. These are the same beings as the 'savages' we hate from fear.

    I am not pulling stastics from thin air, most murders-most criminals in general have had pasts too horrific to comprehend and live in a complex turmoil afraid of feeling anything. This is sociopathy. Not evil. Anything but EVIL. These are living breathing beings. Most sociopaths and physcopaths don't even kill-in fact 5% of the world population is one or the other. You probably know one.

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    OceanRaven / Aug 29 2020 22.46

    A grown man in his 30's will not awake with a thirst for blood-Like everything, murder has a cause. I cannot send links (It violates message board laws) however, merely research child-abuse and serial-killer stastics and you will see stastics ranging as high as 90% admitting to have had sexual, phychological, and/or physical abuse. Here is a fictional, all be it very real, example.

    'Dan' has a widowed mother with proufound OCD and schritzophrenia. Haunted by dellusions she beats Dan until he is so bruised his pale causcasion skin is purely black-and he collapses. He is forced to feel NOTHING, If he even allows himself to have a glimmer of forgivingness his mother will surely kill him. He grows so petrified next time she comes to collect his meal he stabs her. Suddenly all the fear and terror washes away and he feels relief-the closest thing to happiness he can. Call him what you will, physco, wrong, criminal-He is not innocent nor guilty. Imagine feeling nothing but terror and killing is all that makes existence bareable. Denying yourself emotion in fear of death. He may have had other options, but he would have perished. He is just as much-perhaps more of a victem than his prey. I know this is controversal, but I feel great pity for a child who has been beatan, scorned to the point of murder, and raped. Oh wait, it's not. These are the same beings as the 'savages' we hate from fear.

    I am not pulling stastics from thin air, most murders-most criminals in general have had pasts too horrific to comprehend and live in a complex turmoil afraid of feeling anything. This is sociopathy. Not evil. Anything but EVIL. These are living breathing beings. Most sociopaths and physcopaths don't even kill-in fact 5% of the world population is one or the other. You probably know one.

    mabinogion / Aug 30 2020 12.16

    in the fictional scenario, i would count that as self defense, so it isnt relevant to my point. i would feel sympathetic to him too. and also i know most psychopaths and sociopaths dont murder, they are literally MEDICAL CONDITIONS, im not ableist. you should realise not all murders are psychopaths or sociopaths- judging by the rarity of the two i would hazard a guess that the majority are not.

    yes many have had bad pasts but you also have to realise many have NOT, you shouldnt even be excusing the ones with bad pasts (not current situations) : as another fictional example: B was neglected by his parents as a child. when he was 18, he began dating a woman who turned out to be heavily abusive and would beat him severely and steal from him, he would often end up in hospital. after many years, he finally managed to leave his abuser. 10 years after, he had married another woman and they had two small children. one night, after he and his wife had an argument and she brought up the possibility of divorce, he got so mad that he attacked her and stabbed her multiple times, then stabbed his two children who were sat in the living room to death as well.

    even though B had a horrible past in this example, you could not excuse his actions on the basis of his past, this was a horrible murder and you cannot forgive this.

    i am concerned by the way you are writing and some of your ideas that you are romanticising murder, please DO NOT DO THIS - you wouldnt romanticise rape, do not romanticise murder either, it is a horrific crime and ruins people's lives and breaks families. then the concern you are considering committing it yourself - please dont, you dont realise how awful it is, everyone will hate you and you will go to prison for a VERY, VERY long time. you will ruin your life.

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    OceanRaven / Aug 30 2020 21.46

    I do not feel as if I am romantising murder. I WOULD NEVER EVER EVER MURDER UNLESS MY OR ANOUTHER INNOCENT LIFE DEPENDED ON IT. I firmly believe murder is disgusting, and that it SHOULD BE INSTICTIVLY, MORALLY, AND CULTERLLY ENGRANED THAT MURDER IS WRONG. I would not do it because 'everyone will hate you and you will go to to prison for a VERY, VERY long time'. I wouldn't do it because the concept of cold-blooded murder shouldn't exist, and that taking an innocent life is 100% deblorable. But I very much appreciate your concern for myself and society.

    The act of murder is evil. I firmly believe that. But the murderers are not. I understand it is nauseating to think this-but murderers ARE complex people. I physically tremble at the concept of murder, I am trembling now-and am strongly repelled even by the conept of shop-lifting.

    I do believe in your example it was much more clearly wrong to kill, but-litterally more murderers than not, have had horrible pasts. I cannot send links but if you type into google 'Serial-killer child-abuse', you will see many results.

    I HATE the act of murder, however, to hate the humans who do it? That is simply impossible to ask of me. And it is such a repulsive, twisted act, it is hard not to dismiss them as an evil object without emotions, but-for many it is in their nature. That feels so wrong to say but serial killer are born with different brains-somthing they cannot control. Now, have that brain alone-or the brain damage that causes it-it's fine. But if you mix nature, nurture, and mental instability it is almost nateraul for some. And that is disgusting and repulsive and it terrifies me, but, if we treat murderers like objects-they will become objects. Their will be more killers and more chaos.

    Sincerly,

    -OceanRaven.

  8. Outcast
    OceanRaven / Aug 30 2020 22.34

    P.S-

    In my example I did not mean the primary murder, rather the following mass-murders because that was the only way the terror would go away.

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    OceanRaven / Aug 30 2020 21.46

    I do not feel as if I am romantising murder. I WOULD NEVER EVER EVER MURDER UNLESS MY OR ANOUTHER INNOCENT LIFE DEPENDED ON IT. I firmly believe murder is disgusting, and that it SHOULD BE INSTICTIVLY, MORALLY, AND CULTERLLY ENGRANED THAT MURDER IS WRONG. I would not do it because 'everyone will hate you and you will go to to prison for a VERY, VERY long time'. I wouldn't do it because the concept of cold-blooded murder shouldn't exist, and that taking an innocent life is 100% deblorable. But I very much appreciate your concern for myself and society.

    The act of murder is evil. I firmly believe that. But the murderers are not. I understand it is nauseating to think this-but murderers ARE complex people. I physically tremble at the concept of murder, I am trembling now-and am strongly repelled even by the conept of shop-lifting.

    I do believe in your example it was much more clearly wrong to kill, but-litterally more murderers than not, have had horrible pasts. I cannot send links but if you type into google 'Serial-killer child-abuse', you will see many results.

    I HATE the act of murder, however, to hate the humans who do it? That is simply impossible to ask of me. And it is such a repulsive, twisted act, it is hard not to dismiss them as an evil object without emotions, but-for many it is in their nature. That feels so wrong to say but serial killer are born with different brains-somthing they cannot control. Now, have that brain alone-or the brain damage that causes it-it's fine. But if you mix nature, nurture, and mental instability it is almost nateraul for some. And that is disgusting and repulsive and it terrifies me, but, if we treat murderers like objects-they will become objects. Their will be more killers and more chaos.

    Sincerly,

    -OceanRaven.

    mabinogion / Aug 30 2020 23.04

    hi there,

    im glad you are not considering committing a crime, thats good.

    i would like to point out there is a significant difference between a murderer and a serial killer. i also do know that murderers are also complex people - this concept is not new to me, but just because they are complex, doesnt mean it is excusable either. i would like to point out something that i heard recently: "it might be an explanation but it's not an excuse" - meaning someones past may possibly have an effect on their choice of actions, however it cannot excuse them/make them innocent. neither serial killers nor murderers are excusable, however i would like to point out that it has been shown that those significant differences are significant in SERIAL KILLERS- not murderers, and serial killers are much, much rarer than murderers, i am mostly referring to murderers, serial killers are even worse, its more often for worse reasons (they wanted to, fun, sport, psychopathy/socipathy etc)

    i do not believe people are necessarily "evil" as such, however serial killers would be the closest i could think of, maybe murderers too but if not evil they are definitely horrible, or at least bad, possibly slightly mislead but still bad (children in gangs). people who are psychopaths or sociopaths (as far as im aware, this comes under Antisocial Personality Disorder - a mental illness - which, by the way, are absolutely NOT automatically synonymous with violence, crime,

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    mabinogion / Aug 30 2020 23.14

    (Sorry accidently sent it)

    murder etc) are not automatically programmed to be a serial killer either, that is just spreading information that could potentially harm people with mental illnesses, please be careful with your words. while this could desensitise them to others pain, this doesnt make them automatic natural sadistic killers. i also do not believe murderers are objects either, they are people who have done terrible things, ans thinking as such is not objectifiying them. i would also point out that from my knowledge, mentally unstable (in relation to "mental instability", as you mentioned) is related to BPD/EUPD (Borderline Personality Disorder/Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder) which are also mental illnesses, and i have never heard of to be related to murder at all, from what i am aware it is mostly consisting of poor relationships with other people, severe mood swings and self harm/suicidal behaviour, i have never seen murder or violence towards others mentioned anywhere, at worst manipulation. it would also be nice if you could be careful of your words aroung this as it furthers negative stigma towards those with this illness, especially when untrue.

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    mabinogion / Aug 30 2020 23.04

    hi there,

    im glad you are not considering committing a crime, thats good.

    i would like to point out there is a significant difference between a murderer and a serial killer. i also do know that murderers are also complex people - this concept is not new to me, but just because they are complex, doesnt mean it is excusable either. i would like to point out something that i heard recently: "it might be an explanation but it's not an excuse" - meaning someones past may possibly have an effect on their choice of actions, however it cannot excuse them/make them innocent. neither serial killers nor murderers are excusable, however i would like to point out that it has been shown that those significant differences are significant in SERIAL KILLERS- not murderers, and serial killers are much, much rarer than murderers, i am mostly referring to murderers, serial killers are even worse, its more often for worse reasons (they wanted to, fun, sport, psychopathy/socipathy etc)

    i do not believe people are necessarily "evil" as such, however serial killers would be the closest i could think of, maybe murderers too but if not evil they are definitely horrible, or at least bad, possibly slightly mislead but still bad (children in gangs). people who are psychopaths or sociopaths (as far as im aware, this comes under Antisocial Personality Disorder - a mental illness - which, by the way, are absolutely NOT automatically synonymous with violence, crime,

    OceanRaven / Aug 30 2020 23.26

    You are very right-and make lot's of excellent points. I do not believe in 'Good' or 'Evil' people, (That's based on the assumption good and evil exist), I would probably say a serial killer is worse also, but am much more open to 'Good' and 'Evil' actions.

    I very much like the quate "It might be an explaation but it's not an excuse." That is very true.

    I am also aware of APD, as well as the fact that it is not 'criminal thing'.

    Where I come from, homocides are relitivly common. There is about 0.9 deaths per 100,000 citezens, And are between 26-50 deaths from murder every year-altough that seems like a small figure, it is worth noting only about 1.8 million people live on the entire island. I luckily don't live there anymore.

    I really agree with your points-and hope we can talk again.

    You are right about the serial-killer, murder part, I believe murder is more commonly personal and/or in self defense, whereas serial killing is often a terrible, deplorable, sport, to 'relieve' whatever the person is dealing with.

    Stay safe,

    -OceanRaven.

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